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A place for women in PCW?

#1 User is offline   baddest•bitch Icon

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM

Is there a place for women in PCW?

I was planning on waiting for the “what we said” to be posted about Takedown last week so that I could address this. However, it’s almost the deadline for the next Takedown and nothing has been posted and I didn’t want to just ghost PCW. I wanted to share with you an outsider’s perspective. I will preface this with the fact that I am a feminist and I can come off as bitchy and blunt. I will try to be as neutral as possible, but I make no promises because this is important to me.

As you may or may not know, Shaun [Deathray/KOR] is my husband. He wrote the KOR/Tessa Blanchard match and he showed me the match feedback that Kyle [Covenant] provided him regarding the match. And honestly, it was one of the most disheartening things that I have read in efedding in a very long time. I have quoted it below.

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UPPER MIDCARD
Singles Match
Kyle O'Reilly vs. Tessa Blanchard
JUDGE: Kyle
WRITER: Shaun
RESULT:
Started with KOR: First, I really like how you give a brief little description of who the other people involved here are. I don't know very much about Tessa or TNT in general, and you managed to give me a nice little overview of them all so I wouldn't have to do much digging myself. Was a nice touch. I've always had an issue with intergender matches, because, at least in my eyes, and I mean no offense with this, there's no legitimate way a woman would beat a man in this situation unless the woman is expertly trained. Like, UFC fighters who are women? They'd WHOOP some ass. But in wrestling, unless interference is present, I'm not sure how realistic it would be. That being said, I think both you and your opponent did an EXCELLENT job of getting past that and just doing what needs to be done. This kinda matchup, with RPs like the two of yours? Makes me SO much more comfortable with these kinda matches in the future. So thanks for that. In terms of the content, you know how I feel about your work, and this is no exception. First I thought DR was amazing, then A6 was better, and this? This is ABSURD. Your character is dope, the writing is dope. I literally don't have ANY criticism here. The gut-checks were great, the material on Tessa was great. Excellent work.

TB: Your style for your RP is like a film script, and honestly? Honestly I love that. But, unlike a movie script? Your description is top notch. Honestly, the character you've got here is A1. You've sold me with the first, like, ten lines, and I'm just baffled. You guys made it SO hard for me to make a decision here. The ending of the first scene was hilarious, and yet you manage to keep this cut-throat demeanor, too. Then you've got a third scene with a match in it? You can write matches, too? :eyes: All of these scenes? Excellent. All of the content? Excellent. No qualms here.
RESULT: Honestly? You guys are wild. I can't pick a winner here, so what I think we're gonna' do is have this end in a NO CONTEST, with Bobby Fish and Toni Storm and anyone else y'all are involved with interfering in the match and it ending in this clusterfuck of go-home show proportions. Hope that works for y'all.


There are so many things wrong with this that I almost don’t know where to start. First of all, every wrestler is an athlete. You do not call Johnny Gargano a male athlete or a male wrestler – you simply call him a wrestler. To differentiate women by their gender is offensive. They are athletes, pure and simple. One of the best things that WWE did in recent memory is take away the term Diva and the god-awful butterfly belt. Because women are more than that. And that isn’t to say that WWE is progressive in any right. I know that PCW is supposed to emanate WWE but that isn’t an excuse to be oppressive to a certain gender. It is hard not to look at the list of staff members and see that nearly ALL of them are men and not see blatant sexism in a company that still uses the term Knockout. Maybe no one has said anything before, but I can’t go unheard.

As a woman, my writing style and skill should and does not have ANYTHING to do with my genitals. It shouldn’t be a part of how my match is judged (the fact that it was brought up at all in the intergender match is clear that it mattered) or how my character is treated. Women can fight men. It is clear from the character’s here that most of you watch WWE and NJPW exclusively – which are very segregated when it comes to gender. But intergender wrestling is alive and well in the independent scene. Sure, most women are smaller than their male counterparts but that happens in male wrestling all the time. If Kalisto can defeat Braun Stroman, why can’t Alexa Bliss defeat Jeff Hardy? It isn’t about the size of the athlete, it is about their skill and their ability to strategize and change their gameplan dependent upon their opponent’s strengths. Women can beat men clean. We are not the weaker sex and for someone in management to imply that is honestly disgusting. I have inserted a YouTube clip below of an intergender match at a recent Superkick’d show I attended [an indie promotion here in Toronto]. In this match the only way a man defeated a woman was to cheat. Watch it and realize that women are just as capable as men.

I just feel like there isn’t a place for women to be treated fairly in PCW. In the last three e-feds I was in, Crystal [Tessa] and I held the World Titles in all of them – as women. As small, talented, fierce women. Because that is possible. Because we are not lesser because of our vaginas. If you look around the efed community today, most feds do not have a “Women’s Title” because this is about writing and skill not whatever you consider to be “realistic”. PCW has had Cruiserweight's as their Heavyweight Champions [Ashley Sixx and Brian Kendrick to name two] and that is realistic enough for you. Why? Because they have dick's between their legs so they have the ability to accomplish more than a woman? We deserve more than to be segregated and told what we can and cannot do by anyone else.

I hope you take this seriously and to heart.

-Kayla

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#2 User is offline   Sayla Icon

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:46 PM

I'm going to respond to this more when I can coherently put together what I want to say (Ask anyone, I'm bad at conveying opinions and things)

But I do want to apologize. I really do. Now, I'm not going to speak for Kyle, but I will say this. Me, personally, when we booked the match (more when I was told this match was requested) I was extremely excited because I do appreciate intergender wrestling. I think it has a place in professional wrestling because of what professional wrestling is. There are some exceptions in my opinion like I do think that putting Toni up against Braun Strowman would not be an ideal matchup, but a creative writer, like a creative wrestler, can come up with ways to make it work. I wanted this to be the bridge that allowed more intergender matches to happen in PCW more often

I want to say, I do understand your qualms and trust me when I say this, we have argued about this multiple times, and its something that I legitimately wanted to see happen more in PCW as admin, as I feel like our women's rpers are great and should face some of the guys.

Again, I'ma going to try and convey more detailed opinions, but I'm bad at this stuff.
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#3 User is offline   Covenant Icon

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:02 PM

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Is there a place for women in PCW?


Yes.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

I know that PCW is supposed to emanate WWE but that isn’t an excuse to be oppressive to a certain gender. It is hard not to look at the list of staff members and see that nearly ALL of them are men and not see blatant sexism in a company that still uses the term Knockout.


There's no oppression, there really isn't. We've always had one of the best women's divisions in all of efedding and it's often more respected than any of our other divisions. To not want intergender matches isn't oppressive. Blatant sexism? I'm sorry that you feel that way but I really, really don't see any. The "term" Knockout is a widely recognized term to use for women's divisions in wrestling. So because we use it, too, we're sexist and oppressive? I don't see it. If there's something I'm missing then please let me know cuz I don't wanna' be unintentionally ignorant here. I'm really open to hearing your side and your perspective since I don't see the same way.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

As a woman, my writing style and skill should and does not have ANYTHING to do with my genitals. It shouldn’t be a part of how my match is judged (the fact that it was brought up at all in the intergender match is clear that it mattered) or how my character is treated.


Your gender has never and will never play a role in judging. The gender of the writer is irrelevant. We've had a bunch of writers who don't disclose their gender or lie or tell us something different. YOUR gender isn't part of the judging, and nothing I said would suggest that, as far as I can read it. Your character's gender is not the same (I mean, it literally is, but it isn't always necessarily true for everyone) as your character's. I play Alexa Bliss, don't I? I'm a man, though. Your writing style and skill doesn't have anything to do with what pieces you've got anatomically, and I'm sorry my feedback made you feel that way. Not the intention and not at all a belief I, or anyone I associate with for that matter, hold.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

Women can fight men. It is clear from the character’s here that most of you watch WWE and NJPW exclusively – which are very segregated when it comes to gender. But intergender wrestling is alive and well in the independent scene.


PCW is not supposed to be indy in kayfabe.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

We are not the weaker sex and for someone in management to imply that is honestly disgusting.


Uh, is this IASIP? That's not remotely even close to the implication. I would never ever say they're the weaker sex. In kayfabe, these are supposed to be the best of the best in the world, right? Did I not clearly say that I was growing more comfortable with the concept of an intergender match? I know for a fact I'm not alone in the belief prior to this that intergender matches shouldn't happen, and there was a huge argument about it semi-recently on Discord and on the board. I never said women are the weaker sex. I'd never imply it either. If you knew me irl you'd know that I'm a huge activist for women's rights and for equality. Most people would consider me super liberal. Been shat on at school for being a feminist.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

I just feel like there isn’t a place for women to be treated fairly in PCW. In the last three e-feds I was in, Crystal [Tessa] and I held the World Titles in all of them – as women. As small, talented, fierce women. Because that is possible. Because we are not lesser because of our vaginas.


Okay, but this is supposed to be an emulation of the WWE or the big time companies irl. Not a single one has a woman world champion. I, too, have been in feds and been world champion as a woman character, but I always struggled with the comfortability of writing an RP as a male character facing a woman. Never the other way around. That isn't sexism. Furthermore, I don't make the rules here, so that title thing is something to take up with someone above my paygrade.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

If you look around the efed community today, most feds do not have a “Women’s Title” because this is about writing and skill not whatever you consider to be “realistic”.


I've never been in a fed without a Women's Championship unless there were no women character or there was only one or two titles TOTAL. So, uh... Can't really comment there.

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

We deserve more than to be segregated and told what we can and cannot do by anyone else.


You haven't been told you can or can't do anything. By anyone.


I'm sorry my feedback made you feel the way you do. Genuinely. That being said, I strongly disagree with both your assessment of this fed and your assessment of me. If you'd read my feedback again, you'd see that your RP and your husband's RP both made me feel so much more comfortable about the possibility of intergender matches in the future. I don't make any booking decisions or suggestions here anymore, so that isn't on my shoulders. I'd specifically asked in the past not to judge any intergender matches because I didn't want any uncomfortability of mine to involve itself. I picked up two extra matches that week that hadn't originally been assigned to me (might have been just one, but I don't remember), so this was an outlier.

All in all? I'm not sexist. PCW is not sexist. From the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry if the phrasing of my feedback made you feel otherwise.

If you have any questions or need any clarification for anything I said or believe, then please don't hesitate to reach out.

I hope a resolution here can be reached and you can all stay and enjoy what this community has to offer.
Big things have small beginnings...
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#4 User is offline   Scott Summers Icon

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:38 PM

I'm not going to speak on the judging because I don't have much influence or say in what goes on with that and I don't want to speak for somebody else.

However, this discussion is something that's been had before and having seen the arguments from both perspectives, I do want to mention one thing. The reason some people (maybe not all) see intergender matches as unrealistic isn't that women are lesser, but rather the fact that you bring up of PCW mirroring WWE in a lot of aspects. PCW is meant to be a major organization on a major cable network and the connotation of seeing a man potentially (in this case, depending on judging) beat up a woman doesn't sit well with a lot of TV networks and likely wouldn't fly. Intergender matches weren't even possible in the games after a while, last time I checked, so it's a sensitive issue in that respect. That's where a lot of the pushback comes from and I understand it to an extent.

With that said, in this day and age I think it's a lot easier to get around that. I think the examples you bring up are a good case for them being allowed, and there are plenty of examples of female athletes who could legitimately kick a man's ass if the situation necessitated it. That gives leeway for RPing and booking to make it happen, in the same way RPing and booking can make Kalisto defeat Strowman or Rey beat Big Show as Tessa's RPer mentioned. My only issue would be ensuring the KO RPer was willing to take their character out of the division and work that in with their own personal storyline (so no forcing intergender matches on KO RPers who don't want to do it, basically). Otherwise, I see no issue with it and, in the case of this specific match, there's no argument against it in my opinion. Regardless of what the stance is on intergender matches in general, if you both agree to it, I don't think anybody should stand against it.

While I'll let him speak for himself when he gets on, I know Tom was all for the intergender match as well and had no problem with it. We've had (and I've been apart of, thus my comment on seeing both perspectives) female tag teams and tag team champions so it's not something that's totally banned or what not. To say one thing on the judging, based on Kyle's post, I don't think the intergender comment was meant to imply that it had any impact on the result itself either. Seemed more the case of him seeing how the above could come into play and help make sense of intergender matches in a setting like PCW due to how you both handled your RPs.

Hopefully that gives some insight on stuff (for you and for those against it).
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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:29 PM

The short response here is that, nobody's gender is preventing them from doing anything. Yours, your character's, etc.

I've always been in favor of intergender matches, and have never shied away from them. We've had women go after and hold our tag titles, we've had at least one venture out into the Rising division to compete with males, even if it wasn't long lived, and no one's ever been held back or prevented from doing that.

If someone came in with a female and said they wanted to chase something outside of the Women's Championship, then that's their choice and I wouldn't stop them. But to this point, there's only ever been one person to say that, and it didn't end up happening. So there isn't exactly much I can do about that, without randomly forcing women into divisions they don't actually want to be apart of - which I absolutely will not do.

So that's where we are as far as that goes.

As far as comments made - obviously I disagree with them, and they don't reflect my opinions or those of my staff as a whole, regardless of our preference of characters played.

So yeah, that's where I stand on it. I apologize you feel insulted in any way, and if you need any further clarification or anything, I'll be happy to provide it.
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#6 User is offline   Rando Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:41 AM

I'm just going to slide in here because I have some strong feelings about this, and have a hard time holding my tongue when I have said strong feelings. Full disclosure as it feels warranted in this conversation: I am a white heterosexual cis-gendered male. This might explain the inherent inability to not share my opinion. HERE WE GO!

-I am happy to see the various members of the staff openly say that they plan to do more inter-gender matches going forward, and that this match in particular served as a testing ground for that. Without revealing my personal plans, I can speak for myself when I say that I wanted Von Eerie to move into some intergender feuds going forward. If this kind of competition was across staff being frowned upon, it would make me uncomfortable as well.

-That said, I do think intergender stuff has to be handled with some care. I have had a long conversation with a friend of mine who enjoys indie intergender work, but also sees why it would be harder to work on WWE-style programming because, quite frankly, it can easily be booked as violence towards women. See recent criticisms of some of the more questionable aspect of Joss Whedon's work: he creates bad-ass women who fit into a certain mold of empowerment, but a common avenue that the shows use to show that empowerment is images of them being beat to shit. But I also see wrestling (and especially eFedding) as having a certain fantasy element to it where things that may strain some suspension of disbelief, it is not out of the realm of possibility. Chun Li is still a viable option in Street Fighter.

-When we are in a space having an honest dialogue, I also kind of hate the use of "Knockout" moniker. I find it gross and cheap with TNA uses it, and I have similar feelings here. I get the double meaning, but it generally plays into the cat-fight nature that show viewed women's wrestling for a long time. Just my two cents, take it for what you will.

-I don't, however, have a problem with women's only belts. I don't have a rationale for why this doesn't bother, but I recognize it as a way to form a division that can still be built on the back of excellent wrestling but doesn't fall under "separate but equal" concerns. But again. My two cents.

-We may be beyond this at this point, but all of this also could potentially make for GREAT STORYLINE fodder. I actually picked up the point to TNT weren't interested in being pigeonholed into being "Women's Wrestlers", but being taken seriously by the entire roster as a threat. AND THAT'S GREAT. Push against the structure a bit, feel free to explore a space where you challenge the expectations. To answer the leading question of the topic title, I think there is absolutely a space for women in PCW, either as handlers or characters, and that raising concerns like this is central to expanding something like this. Imagine how WOULD a company like WWE try integrate intergender matches into their formula? I honestly read into both of your work that was the direction you were going in, and I was excited about it. While I understand how you might be frustrated with how the match turned out, I honestly think this space if better for having writers like you in it. Just recognize that not everyone may see the answer quite as cut and dry and settled as you might. It is complicated, but my hope is that together as creative, thoughtful people we could create stories that tackle these things honestly and intriguingly.

Not sure if any of that was helpful or necessary, but I feel better at least for having gotten to say something.
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#7 User is offline   Necronomicon Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 02:33 AM

View Postbaddest•bitch, on 11 September 2017 - 08:28 PM, said:

It is clear from the character’s here that most of you watch WWE and NJPW exclusively – which are very segregated when it comes to gender.


This is something I wanted to point out. I can't speak for many people but I am certain that your deduction is correct. I really only hear WWE/NJPW talk. Sometimes Stardom but it's rare. So it only makes sense that PCW is a product of it's environment. Not saying I justify it at all but in a way it makes sense. If someone watches those two companies exclusively then it only makes sense if they were part of a forum staff, that's how things would be seen. Do I agree with it? No. But that's just how it is for some people. I will straight up say that PCW does have some issues with intergender matches, there is absolutely no denying that. Hell, a couple of months ago when we were bringing back the Tag Team Championship, there was a huge debate about allowing the female talent to compete for it as well. It was about 50/50 and I think you could see the discussion if you dig deep enough. Point is, we still have a ways to go with this topic in particular. Some people are uncomfortable with writing their characters facing women because they have no idea how to approach it. It's still an enigma to some. Me, personally, I've always been a huge advocate for the female talent on the roster. I'm sure others will back me up in the statement but I have been trying to give them more exposure for the longest time. That's half the reason Russ and I decided to go with the Johnny/Candice duo. We value intergender wrestling. But even after saying all of that, I could see see arguments from the other side. Some people aren't quite there yet and that's okay.

The next step forward would be helping people who aren't totally sure on how to approach this topic. I know to you it's not that big of a deal. Alexa Bliss should be able to defeat Jeff Hardy no problems. Yeah, sure. I get it and I agree. Some don't. So we need people like you to help promote the message that the females on the roster deserve just as much praise as the men. Hell, sometimes they deserve it more. For awhile the Knockouts were heavily outnumbering the male talent and it showed with our match cards and the fact we had the short lived show, Empire, exclusive for the Knockouts.

I get your message loud and clear. I appreciate it because I've wanted women having chances at championships that aren't exclusive to them for the longest time now. I've wanted women headlining more PPVs (and honestly, midcard/tag as well) for the longest time. PCW is built upon the formula that WWE has created for us and that's not necessarily a bad thing. But with people like you we could make a step forward to break from that mold and embrace something that's graced the indy scene for so long. But now the ball is in your court. Multiple staff members and roster members have voiced their opinions. Even though I understand why you (or Tessa; sorry forgot your name!) may have a bitter taste because of how things went down. As a huge advocate of both the women's division and the tag team division, I would love for you to stay. I genuinely want you to. So I'm not just saying this because PCW "needs the numbers" or other bullshit like that. You said what you needed to say and I can promise you that many staff members are willing to try something new when it comes to the topic at hand. All I ask for you is to stick around and actually help make that change. Leaving changes nothing.

PS: I hate the Knockout moniker as well. I am all for it being retired.
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#8 User is offline   Old Tom Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 05:57 AM

I'm going to go against my better judgment, and use this account for another post here.

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As a woman, my writing style and skill should and does not have ANYTHING to do with my genitals.

He didn't mention your gender once in his entire bit of feedback. You read too deep in to it.

Besides that, I also wanted to throw the following out there.

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It is hard not to look at the list of staff members and see that nearly ALL of them are men and not see blatant sexism in a company that still uses the term Knockout. Maybe no one has said anything before, but I can’t go unheard.


I have a lot of problems with this part. I've been around a long ass time. For about two board moves now, actually, and I don't recall a single time, in the entire history of this site and it's many iterations, there ever being a person who called out Knockouts as an issue. We've had multiple, successful female role players on here. Successful dudes who played females. A lot of hall of fame people (who actually deserved it) put a lot of time in on this site. I have never once seen someone mention the KO thing until today. I say that to say the following, because for someone who made their account recently, the "all men" thing looks shitty. I get that. The trouble is, you joined a month ago.

This site has had a rotating issue of power for a long ass time. I don't say this to talk shit about anyone. I say this because it's true. We've had a few female admins on the site before. We've had a few male admins on the site before. What you see in place now is the product of, mostly, the people who are still around and give a shit about the place. Despite the stress and frustration posts like this must give them on a daily basis, if they care enough. We used to have a female head admin a long ass time ago. She wasn't ousted or anything. Far as I'm aware, she was friends with a lot of people. She just left at some point. We've had other women run the female (since KO is taboo now, I'll use this to make this post more friendly) side of things before as well. That fell through. You can't force people to stay in place if they don't want to. This is why Tom is still in place, and why Sayla is holding the reigns at the moment. Because they give a shit, and they stick around, despite ungrateful person after ungrateful person trying to decry the site as whole for one reason or another.

Now, to the other part about how genitals shouldn't affect the thoughts about one's writing. Alyssa is going to be a hall of famer at this point. Kasumi\Mistywing\whatever the fuck pseudonym she's going by this month is already in with one character, and as herself in our ACTUAL role player hall of fame. Peyton's handler (I'm sorry, you joined after I decided I hate this place, so you'll forgive me for not remembering your name, I hope) has been doing well, from discussion I tend to jump in on from my main Discord server, and the PCW one. You can very easily do well here, regardless of your gender. I suppose I should be directing this more at Tessa's handler, but sufficed to say, one judge giving you a bad impression shouldn't be the deciding factor of a site that has about 10 of them, if everyone's around. I know Kyle a fair bit. Not incredibly well, but enough to know he means well. He's already covered his bases here, but I'll say that the dude isn't malicious about these kinds of things. To throw him under the bus, when you really don't know him or the site as a whole, kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not that it matters. I have no sway here. It's just my two cents.

Whether or not you, Shaun, and Tessa decide to stay isn't something I, personally, am terribly concerned with. I don't role play here anymore. Hell, I think my last post was like 2 months ago. The problem I have with this is a few fold. A, you're assuming things about people you've barely gotten to know. B, you're doing this rather publicly, for reasons I can't quite discern other than feeling like it needed to be said? C, it's not even Tessa's handler posting it anyway, which is just as confusing to me since you both just joined the site, more or less. They could have posted it, and I'd have the same reaction, but less confusion overall, because at least they would be airing out their grievances themselves. The gamble was taken on an intergender match, you didn't like the wording of a judge (who wasn't initially slated to cover that match in the first place), and this is the response to it? To put the staff of the site on blast for not running things as they do in other efeds, and apparently being sexist? It doesn't leave a great first impression.

Don't take my words as someone from staff, or an overall representation of the site. You and I would probably never have interacted otherwise, seeing as I don't even lurk here anymore. I was linked to the site, read the thread, and wanted to mention some issues I had. That's it.
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Posted 12 September 2017 - 07:24 AM

I didn't really want to add to this growing thread without reason, but in fairness my own views aren't captured in it yet and I'd like someone to make these points. Alas it has to be me.

Disclaimer: I may be in a huge minority but I know I'm not alone, so I can claim to speak for at least a tiny portion of people with what is said below:

First off, I'll say this in nice big letters. The first time I'm booked in a mixed gender match is the last time I'll be booked. There will be some who read that and say it's sexist. There will be some who read it and think I'm a sacrifice worth making in the name of some sort of progress. I bear no ill will to the holders of either of those opinions. However I do have a rationale for it which I suppose I need to give.

- It's nothing at all to do with the gender of the RPer. I quite often don't know that information, I don't care about it, I don't give it a second's thought. Some of the best RPers I've ever seen were women, some of the worst were men. Also, the absolute worst I've seen was a woman and the top 2 or 3 were men. Is that a coincidence? Yep. But I shouldn't feel scared to say it.

- I get enough politics in my professional life and I don't come here for it. If we're entering a world where saying 'Knockout' or voicing an opinion on mixed gender wrestling is going to earn me a label then fuck that, frankly. I have no desire to offend anybody and if departure were the only way to ensure that, then I'd be gone.

- Yes, we align to WWE's model. If they have this issue wrong, start a petition. But I suggest it go to Connecticut, not poor Kyle and Sayla. Seems to me that most of us have had a lot of fun following WWE for the last few years and it hasn't really resulted in sweeping moral judgments about our character or society until last night.

- I haven't had a single title shot since 20th December 2015. That's because I'm here to tell stories and only when titles enhance my narrative do I seek them out. I'm in this for the characters, the development, the reality. My objection is grounded in the fact that Undertaker is not going to fight a woman. I like to think I'm as a good an Undertaker RPer as anyone after the better part of a decade at it, but I have absolutely no idea how I cut a promo on AJ Lee and I have no desire to start learning. If it jars with me then it's not the character that I came here to write about.

All of which is to say, if you want inter-gender then absolutely. Go to it. But there needs to be a partition for those of us with no interest in engaging in it. And there needs to be a serious reduction in moral judgment attached to it. I don't want mixed gender for the reasons above. It has nothing to do with some inherent view about weaker sexes and nonsense like that.

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#10 User is offline   Lady Maria Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 08:18 AM

As a point of context, I'd like to mention not only that, as others have brought up, that the discussion of the feasibility of intergender matches has been brought up before, I'd also like to mention that points similar to yours have also been brought up within that same discussion. Check the last few pages behind that post, and you'll see that, yeah, the split pretty much was 50/50 between who was fine with it and who wasn't. Even then, intergender crossover isn't quite as recent as this year either. This instance and the following matches were a full on intergender feud back in 2013. However, perhaps the earliest instance I can think of was back in 2011 when an intergender tag team challenged for the titles. This topic isn't quite so new in PCW, but I don't think it's ever really been discussed at length across the board except for perhaps the conversation that took place at the start of the year.

I can't speak for the 2011 occurrence, since I don't remember what happened back then. However, for the 2013 matches, I do recall hearing that there were grumblings amongst a couple of members in private but nothing that really spilled over into public discussion. The fact that there was no vocal opposition leads me to believe that most people were fine with it, if not at least indifferent. The conversation from back in January this year brought out some more opinions, since it presented the idea that anyone could potentially be booked against someone of the opposite gender, to which you could see the divide in opinion. Ultimately, this discussion led nowhere as no matches were booked, and I don't think anything happened with the tag team titles. In regards to your match, really, it was just one guy. Most of us either encourage it at best or are completely indifferent to it at worst. I myself am pretty indifferent as to whether they actually happen or not. It's the topic of feasibility and realism for which my opinion stands strong that, yes, it's perfectly believable for a woman to beat a man, especially according to the VERY loose rules of a wrestling match, and yes, it's perfectly possible for a babyface man to fight a woman, so long as the writer isn't too narrow-minded in approaching their character's perspective. More than a wrestling forum, this is a creative writing outlet first and foremost. Creativity (or lack thereof) is what holds a person back, not reality.

To the primary point though, I guess we should say that the opinions expressed in any given judgment of a match are reflected only by the judge themselves and not the board as a whole. Kyle himself claims to have expressed an uncomfortability in judging intergender matches in the past, and in this instance, he wasn't the original judge assigned to the match and only picked it up last minute because no one else was available to do so. Other judges are perfectly fine with them, the original judge assigned to the match is perfectly fine with them, and honestly, this circumstance was moreso just an issue of the wrong guy picking up the wrong thing more than anything else. Kyle says he's okay with them now, and whether he is or whether he isn't, hopefully it won't matter too much in the future and these matches can be assigned by judges who have been proven to be okay with the concept and won't express any potential internal biases towards one gender or the other. And hopefully those judges will be able to judge those matches on time. I don't know. People seemed to have a busy week last week, so I can't really speak for anyone.

But yeah, case and point, this is a topic that has been touched on before in the past, but I wouldn't particularly say resolved in the sense that the community has come to a consensus over it. I'm willing to bet that there will never be a solid agreement on the matter as some people want more of it and some people don't want any of it. Making the issue even muddier still is that there are some people who don't want to do it simply because that's not the type of story they want to tell with their character, and some people who don't want to do it because they literally cannot comprehend the concept of a man fighting a woman in any feasible manner. It's a huge grab bag of opinions and viewpoints and perspectives and it'd be difficult to unify them into one agreed upon point, or even just to agree to disagree. I appreciate seeing the topic being brought up again, if only to hear more people's thoughts on the matter, but the fight for feminism is... I guess I would say, I don't expect a complete victory, but just enough for people to allow intergender matches to pass, so long as those who don't want to be involved aren't involved. It sounds like a fair compromise that those who want to do it would get to do it and those who don't want to don't, but with roleplayers and characters shifting on a weekly basis, it might sometimes be a little difficult to keep track of who does what. ...I assume. I don't know, I'm not on staff and I don't keep track of these things. But yeah, on the matter as a whole, I hope for the best, but expect... not the best, but at least acceptable terms.

To points not mentioned, um, in regards to the gender of the writer, I don't believe that's ever really meant anything to anyone in regards to their writing. Case and point, I spent the better part of, what, six or seven years around here with most people being unable to discern whether I was a guy or a girl? And I still managed to accomplish things like getting a character in the Hall of Fame, getting myself into the RPer Hall of Fame, and holding the as of today longest title reign in PCW history. Should gender mean anything towards any of these things, I would've been interrogated a long time ago, but I never was, and I think the fact that I'm still jokingly referred to as an amorphous creature of the deep by some speaks to how little of a factor it is.

In regards to the credibility of women defeating men in competition, yeah, I'm with you on that. I made my point on that in the January discussion, and I won't repeat it here, because I said basically the same things you did.

And when it comes to one last minor thing, really? What We Said hasn't been posted in an entire week? God, you guys on staff are slacking. Do I have to be the designated WWS person again? Sigh, excuse me.
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#11 User is offline   Max Black Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:34 PM

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As possibly the biggest supporter of women on roster around here, since I had been booking them since like 2010/2011 - there's definitely a place for women in PCW. Now, I might have skipped a point, if I did - I apologize. I was trying to skim everyone's long ass posts to avoid repeating stuff xD.

Women have had a better standing role in PCW than WWE for some time. Shaun and I won the Tag Team Titles as an Intergender team before we had ever really remotely discussed the idea that women could face men. It wasn't something we avoided but the issue never came up until I decided to work with Shaun and pushed to make it happen. What we did really opened the door, I feel, around here for intergender matches/feuds. It even opened the door to Chickbusters winning the belts a couple years later, being the first female team to win male dominanted belts.

And while I agree men/women should be treated equal, in some cases - mentioning female, I again feel, actually makes it better. First Woman to hold a male belt sounds historic because it is historic. Chyna was credited as the first female to do that, it added something to her legacy. But in some cases, not every talent male and female should be intergender wrestling. Playing Eva Marie? I knew there was no way I'd be able to realistically build her fighting someone like Rollins or Gargano. But Taylor Wilde or Candice LeRae? I'd definitely be wanting to fight the men. Even now, I've tried to make it clear that Candice is not to be in line for the Women's Championship - I want her to be in contention for Tag or Rising.

I'm perhaps the most protective person when it comes to women on roster, I've pushed for them to have more over the years than you would believe. A tournament was designed and done yearly just to make sure the women had an equal opportunity at something amazing, and something that they could have to themselves. An entire Knockout show was launched by two people who ran the board, something I was never able to do and that made me proud to see everyone starting to push the women into bigger spotlight.

I hope you stick around, but you need time to see how people and characters are treated here.

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#12 User is offline   Schadenfreude Icon

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:41 PM

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I've been roleplaying on/off for 10 years now and assumed I'd seen it all :lol: Kudos to you for this one.

The answer is super simple - start a new section in the booking thread for intergender matches. Anyone who wants their character eligible for them puts their characters name(s) down, anyone who doesn't, doesn't. I face this issue with huge indifference - Kenny Omega had a match with a child, and it was awesome. The first PPV I ever watched had Jacqueline fighting Chavo Guerrero in a match back in 2003. It's been done, it's believable when done right, so fine. BUT, it doesn't suit everyone or their characters. Do I want Kofi Kingston, who I play as the sweetest momma's boy who ever donned trunks, to be in an intergender match? No, because that completely jars with his character. Could I write a deep, character-developing roleplay where he wrestles with the idea of striking a women, even in a wrestling match? Course I could, imagine it would be quite an emotive piece as well. But if I win, some poor match writer now has to paint a believable scenario in which Kofi hits a woman with a Trouble In Paradise and doesn't just immediately burst in to tears and leave the ring. It just wouldn't work for him.

Could Penta fight a woman? Sure, I burned a women alive in a hospital bed for my last Penta roleplay :lol: But this is my point. It depends on the character and it depends on the writer. So give the writer the choice. Opt in, opt out, everyone knows where they stand, those who want to enjoy it can, those who want to stay away from it can.

As for the Knockout thing, I mean... One opinion that the term is demeaning after x amount of years and no-one taking audible issue with it isn't a good enough reason to change it, for me. So just vote on it. Start a poll, "Do you want to change the name of those who compete in the Women's division? Yes or no". "What would you like to change it to?" And offer a list. Whether Knockout wins or loses, democracy wins the day and you get on with it. If it's still a problem for you, work it in to your character. I imagine it would make for good material.

It's Occam's Razor. Pointless us sitting and talking about it at this stage and its weighing down the fed with politics and sniping. A vote here, a sign up for intergender matches there, job done. Everyone knows where they are and on we go.
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